Right now, we spend about 3.9% of our GDP on defense, compared with about 6% in 1986, under President Ronald Reagan. We need to return to that 6% level. And we must stop using active-duty forces for nation building and return to our policy of using other government agencies to build schools, hospitals, roads, sewage treatment plants, water filtration systems, electrical facilities, and legal and banking systems.
Although we cannot export democracy as if it were Coca-Cola or KFC, we can nurture moderate forces in places where al Qaeda is seeking to replace modern evil with medieval evil. Such moderation may not look or function like our system--it may be a benevolent oligarchy or more tribal than individualistic--but both for us and for the peoples of those countries, it will be better than the dictatorships they have now or the theocracy they would have under radical Islamists.
Rather than wait for the next strike, I prefer to cut to the chase by going after al Qaeda's safe havens in Pakistan. As commander in chief, the U.S. president must balance threats and risks in calculating how best to protect the American people. We are living on borrowed time. The threat of an attack on us is far graver than the risk that a quick and limited strike against al Qaeda would bring extremists to power in Pakistan.
The first rule of war is "know your enemy," and most Americans do not know theirs. To grasp the magnitude of the threat, we first have to understand what makes Islamic terrorists tick. [Jihadists] see nothing decadent or sinful in murdering in order to achieve their ends. America's culture of life stands in stark contrast to the jihadists' culture of death.
A: The reason why we are disliked so much is because we are trusted so little. I'm talking about the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world who look at us and, when we say and do things as we're talking about now with Iran, conclude that this is a war on Islam. When we went into Afghanistan, we did it the right way. They knew al-Qaeda were bad guys & supported us. When we do things that don't sound rational to them, it undercuts our legitimacy.
A: Under Bush, America has faced two very serious challenges, one of which they've been a bit obsessed with, which is the issue of terrorism. The other is the rise and strength of China, which they've done virtually nothing about on any front. On top of that, they're obsessed with their own internal economic development, and that results in them propping up bad regimes, like Sudan & Iran.
A: This president, the V.P., & the neocons have been on a march to possible war with Iran for a long time. They've prepared contingency plans for a military attack. My view is that this has been going on since the famous "Axis of Evil" speech, and the US Senate had an important responsibility in standing up to him and stopping him on the vote on whether to declare the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.
A: Of course, any nation that no longer has economic strength sooner or later will lose its military strength, so it's a national security issue. We have many trillions of dollars of unfunded liability. Obviously, we've been on a spending spree. If oil reaches $100 a barrel, which many people think it may, $400 billion of America treasure will go to oil-producing countries. Some of those monies will go to terrorist organizations.
A: I do not know. But the actions were absolutely wrong. I'm glad that the attorney general is going to investigate it. This harms the credibility and the moral standing of America in the world, again. There will be skepticism and cynicism all over the world about how we treat prisoners and whether we practice torture or not.
Q: The CIA director says the tapes were destroyed to protect the identity of the officers involved in the interrogation. Do you buy that?
A: We certainly want to do everything we can to protect the identities of those in the CIA. But he was advised not to [destroy the tapes] b several people, including high-ranking members of the administration. We're also setting up a false argument here between torture & moral high ground. That doesn't have to be. We have to keep the moral high ground. We can do it without torturing people.
A: Right.
Q: The Wall Street Journal wrote, "The Qatar contract offers a window into potential political complications. While Qatar is a US ally, it has drawn scrutiny for its [limited] involvement in the US effort to combat terrorism." Are you aware that the Qatari interior minister has been identified as a protector of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks?
A: I'm aware of it now.
Q: Why would you do business with people who helped Khalid Sheikh Mohammad?
A: The reality is that Qatar is an ally of the US. There are a significant number of American troops that are stationed in Qatar.
Q: But the emir of Qatar praised Hezbollah for their victory ove Israel in Lebanon.
A: The emir of Qatar also supports the US, is one of our friends in the Middle East, is taking the grave risk of having American soldiers there. [My consulting there] gave my company a great deal of expertise in Islamic terrorism.
A: The reality is that we need to develop friends in the Middle East. We need to develop friendships with the Emirates, with Qatar, with Kuwait. These are countries that we have t get closer to. We should trade more with them, we should be involved more with them as we stand up to Islamic terrorism. If they're asking an American company to help them deal with the Islamic terrorist threat in a more secure way, the people involved in this are people that are some of the biggest experts on Islamic terrorism who had been with the FBI. This is a good thing to do. This is a thing that helps us kind of work on the other side of how do you remain on offense against Islamic terrorists?
A: That's just totally wrong. The relationship is not with any of those people.
A: For as long as necessarily to get the strategic objective achieved. Our strategic objective is an Iraq that's stable and an Iraq that will act as an ally of the US in the ongoing Islamic terrorist effort war against us. Some think that that's possible, some think that it's impossible, but that's certainly the best strategic objective.
Q: And if it becomes clear there's no political reconciliation betwee Shiites and Sunnis?
A: If it became clear to any president, Republican or Democrat, that the people in charge of the effort tell you, "Hey, Mr. President, we can't accomplish this," I think any president would have to take that real seriously and start thinking about, well, how do we extricate ourselves from this.
Q: But as of now you're, you're prepared to spend several more years if necessary?
A: For now, [there should be no] time limits placed on the military.
A: My son came back from his third tour as a US Marine on Thanksgiving, having served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan. And, you know, if you check with the Hispanics of the 1st Marine Division or the 10th Army Division of the 1st Cavalry, you'll get a lot different poll than the poll that you're telling me right now, because the young men and women who are serving over there know we can win in Iraq. And let me tell you what they've done. With blood, sweat and tears they have brought down the attack rate in Anbar province by 80%. They brought it down over the entire nation. The Iraqi army is now standing up, all 131 battalions. That government's going to hold and the army's going to hold, and we are going to leave Iraq in victory, and we're going to leave an Iraq that will be a friend, not an enemy of the US. So we're going to be victorious in Iraq, and Hispanic Americans who serve there know that.
There are two things wrong with this statement. One, it took two months, not a "moment," for the price of a barrel of oil to increase by $18. The price per barrel was $80.31 on Sept. 26, the date of the Senate resolution. It wasn't until Nov. 19 that it went up as much as Biden says, to $99.16.
The second problem is that connecting the increase in the price of oil to the declaration on the Revolutionary Guard is a rather stunning post-hoc fallacy. There's no evidence that something like the Senate resolution would have anything approaching such a dramatic effect on the price of oil. Some would expect [SOME] impact from Bush's sabre-rattling [but] risky financial maneuvers by high-stakes speculators may be having a bigger effect.
It's not because we are wealthy & prosperous & free. They come here because we are in their country. Permanent bases [in Iraq & elsewhere in the Arab world] just mean that we have expanded the opportunity for the terrorists to come here because there is greater motivation. So, if we want to protect ourselves against terrorism, we have to understand what motivates them. Even Wolfowitz admitted this. He said that the base in Saudi Arabia was an instrumental part of what motivated Osama bin Laden. So if we ignore that, it is at our own folly.
Q: When you made that point at the debate the other night, there were some boos that came out from that Republican audience. Are you in step with Republican voters?
A: I would say that since 70% of the American people want out of the war, and they are tired of it, the Republicans better pick somebody who is opposed to the war or have a new foreign policy, or they can't win.
A: We've misplaced priorities. We've got a problem growing by the hour in Afghanistan & Pakistan and all of our attention is in Iraq. The longer we remain committed to that effort, the greater the danger is for our country.
Q: But if the US were to leave quickly right now, just as the surge is beginning to show some signs of progress, the whole thing could collapse and all that progress would be for naught.
A: Look, we've been at this longer than WWII now, $2 billion every week here. How much longer, at what great cost do I have to continue to listen to that argument? Yes, the surge is working. What happens when we begin to redeploy? Are we going to stay there permanently? I don't think we can, nor should we.
A: The most important thing to do is to make certain we remain on offense against Islamic terrorism. Then make it clear that what that means is this is a small group of people, Islamic terrorists, who have defiled a great religion
A: Oh, it's very troublesome. Musharraf is not a wonderful leader. I think there is a smart path for America on this, understanding how volatile the situation is. First of all, I think we should reform the nature of our aid and use aid as our leverage tool. I mean, what we've been doing is essentially aiding Musharraf as opposed to aiding the Pakistani people. You know, with funding for F-16s, which does not help in the fight against terrorism, does not help with security for America. And we've also been approaching this unilaterally. We ought to have a multi-lateral approach to this problem. We shouldn't be doing this alone.
A: The first obligation of the president of the US is to protect and defend the US. That doesn't mean that it is to the exclusion of other interests. After 9/11, Bush had a chance to chart a different course, both in Pakistan and in Afghanistan, and could have been very clear about what our expectations were. We are now in a bind. It is not completely, but partly, a result of the failed policies of the Bush administration. Where we are today means that we have to say to Musharraf, "Look, this is not in your interest either; this is not in the interest of the US. It is not in your interest to either stay in power or stay alive." When I was meeting with him earlier this year I asked him if he would accept a high-level presidential envoy to begin to negotiate some of these issues. He said yes. I called the White House, I asked them to send such a high-level envoy. They did not do it. They're going to send one now.
A: The concepts are not contradictory, but complementary. Pakistan is a great example. We paid $10 billion over the last seven years & we had two goals: deal with terrorism and restore democracy. We've gotten neither. Pakistan's democracy would strengthen our battle against extremists. The more we see repression, the more there are no outlets for how people can express themselves and their aspirations, the worse off we're going to be, and the more anti-American sentiment there's going to be in the Middle East. We keep on making this mistake. As president, I will make sure that nuclear weapons don't fall into the hands of extremists, especially Al Qaida. If we simply prop up anti-democratic practices that feeds the sense that the US is only concerned about us and that our fates are not tied to these other folks. That's going to make us less safe. That's something I intend to change.
A: I'm very skeptical of this announcement. You can't have democracy halfway. I am extremely concerned that President Musharraf has not delivered, in my judgment, as much as he could on going after Al Qaeda, on disbanding some of the terrorist headquarters that are on the Afghan-Pakistani border. And it's a failure of leadership on the part of the Bush administration. We should be saying to Musharraf very clearly, "We give you $10 billion since 9/11. Unless you have free elections and return to democracy, unless you go after Al Qaeda in a determined and effective way, your conditional assistance may be terminated." That's what I would do. I think right now we have a failed nation state on our hands.
A: Look, there's a broader issue at stake here, and that is how do we approach Iran? I have said, unlike Senator Clinton, that I would meet directly with the leadership in Iran. I believe that we have not exhausted the diplomatic efforts that could be required to resolve some of these problems--them developing nuclear weapons, them supporting terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas. That does not mean that we take other options off the table, but it means that we move forward aggressively with a dialogue with them about not only the sticks that we're willing to apply, but also the carrots.
A: I've never been accused of being soft on Osama bin Laden. What I think sometimes happens in this country is that we fixate on a personality. And even someone as evil as this man, we need to understand, if he's killed, someone will take his place. It's almost like the focus is so much on him that we think our problem will pretty much go away if we get him. Getting him is important. It's important because he's the head of this operation right now. It's important because of symbolism and lots of other reasons. No question about that. But the notion that our problems are pretty much going to be solved when he goes away-- we can't be fixated-- it minimizes the nature of the problem.
A: Well, he turned out to be right, and he is going to turn out to be wrong on Iran, as he has been wrong on others. The evidence is overwhelming that they are on the path to acquiring nuclear weapons. They are arming Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, as we speak. They have supported Hamas and other terrorist organizations. There is no question about that, no matter what Mr. ElBaradei says. And so, they are a state sponsor of terror. And that's agreed to by most people in the world. And that's my position. I have enough information, my own knowledge and background and information that they are a nation of state-sponsored terror.
A: Obviously, we've got to keep working with Musharraf. I joined others who are condemning his declaring a state of emergency and suspending the constitution. But this is a problem that was created by this administration. This was loading up Musharraf with too much for him to probably carry as a result of our not putting the kind of emphasis on Afghanistan after 9/11 that we should have.
Q: Would you start putting some pressure on President Musharraf, for example, by reducing US military and/or economic assistance?
A: That is something you should consider. Obviously, at this point, you need to make sure that the country is not going to fall apart. And so, working with him to find out how we can move from the position he has put himself in today to a more open process here that allows for possibly a coalition government to emerge here. But we need a stable and strong Pakistan here.
A: It can be used as declaration. It's not even about going to war. Let's look at what happened from the moment that vote took place. Oil prices went up to $90 a barrel. Who benefits from that? All this talk of war and declaring people to be terrorists droves up the price of oil. We have emboldened Bush, at a minimum, his talk of world war III--totally irresponsible talk. We've emboldened him to be able to move, if he chooses to move. They're terrorists. The fact that they're terrorists on one side of the border or the other, we just declare them terrorists. That gives him the right to move against them. Thirdly, this has incredible consequences for Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have no driven, underground, every moderate in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. This puts Karzai and Musharraf in jeopardy. The notion is it plays into this whole urban legend that America's on a crusade against Islam. This was bad policy.
A: We are committed to Iran not having nuclear weapons. We have been governed by fear for the last 6 years. Bush has used the fear of terrorism to launch a war that should have never been authorized. We are seeing the same pattern now. It is very important for us to draw a clear line and say, "We are not going to be governed by fear. We will take threats seriously and take action to make sure that the US is secure."
A: Absolutely. I think it's the right way to go. The best way to approach that is through the sanctions, the diplomatic approach. What is not the right way to go, in my view, is the resolution adopted several weeks ago in the Senate, which almost exclusively focused on the military option in Iran.
Q: But back in March, you co-sponsored a resolution that said this: "The [US} should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a foreign terrorist organization." What's the difference?
A: Well, a huge difference. [The March resolution] was exclusively focused on diplomacy and sanctions and specifically said no military action should be taken in Iran without the prior approval of the Congress. Very, very different approaches than the recent resolution, in which the language on diplomacy and sanctions was removed.
He knows we are dependent on foreign oil, and that our economy remains more oil-intensive than other developed nations' and that the US suffers more than most countries when oil prices rise. Taking the long view, bin Laden believes that the US is not only vulnerable to volatility in oil prices, but also that it lacks the discipline and vision to wean itself off oil.
Bin Laden knows the US is a sleeping giant--one he wrongly believes will never wake up. He thinks we can't change.
A: It's very serious. Waziristan, where I have visited, is clearly at least partially under the control of Taliban and Al Qaida military units who are launching attacks into Afghanistan. The Pakistani army has not been successful, and they made this unholy truce with them which has led to attacks into Afghanistan.
Q: So what happens to us if the country is destabilized?
A: It's a nuclear nation. I am convinced that there are some military people within Pakistan who are more Islamic than the present leadership--radicalized, I mean. What the US should be doing is encourage the reconciliation between Bhutto and Musharraf. I would hope that we would be able to defuse some of the situation. But it would have to be a very, very radical regime to take over for it to be a nuclear threat.
A: We need to put American troops not to do military action but to train and arm the Kurds. They are capable of taking care of those terrorist cells along the Kurdish territory. They've proven that. And we should provide some assistance both in arming them & training them, to try to resolve this crisis. It's not an exciting thing to see Turkey move across that border, but the more we can do to bolster the Kurds, that's our best strategy
A: I think we have to be very careful about siding with either. That's a decision that the people of Pakistan are going to have to make. And it seems that Bhutto and Musharraf are beginning to try to form some type of coalition. But we need to keep our eyes on Pakistan. I think we've sort of taken a view that everything is OK there, and it's not OK there. Let's not forget, it's somewhere in the caves of Pakistan where Osama bin Laden is hiding. The next missile bomb that maybe comes our way, the next terrorist attack, is probably going to be postmarked Pakistan. And that's why in a speech that I gave a few weeks ago I spent a lot of time talking about that we really need to keep a much more intense focus there than we have.
A: I would establish an organization not unlike the OSS in World War II. People who are smart, people who are tough; people who are used to operating independently, and the smartest and most talented people I know. And I would let them loose, and I'd say find this guy and do whatever is necessary to get him.
: A president has to do whatever is necessary to protect the American people. If we think Iran is building nuclear capacity that could be used against us in any way, including selling some of the nuclear capacity to some other terrorist group, then yes, we have a right to do it. And I would do it in a heartbeat.
Q: Without going to Congress?
A: Well, if it's necessary to get it done because it's actionable right now, yes. If you have the time and the luxury of going to Congress, that's always better.
Q: And if Congress says no, what do you do?
A: You do what's best for the American people, and you suffer the consequences. What you never do is let the American people one day get hit with a nuclear device because you had politics going on in Washington instead of the protection of the American people first.
A: Well, of course, we remind people that this is a nation that recognizes the equality of all individuals. We also want to make sure that our nation is kept safe. And we're going to pursue any avenue we have to, to assure that people who might be preaching or teaching doctrines of hate or terror are going to be followed into a church or into a school or a mosque or wherever they might be.
A: I don't believe that in the least. What I voted for was the war on terrorism. And Afghanistan was where the Taliban was -- where al Qaeda was located; it was run by the Taliban. And we saw in Iraq what we thought was the mixture of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. And it was in 2003, this was in close proximity to 2001, when we had the 9/11 crisis, and I wasn't about to trust that Saddam Hussein wasn't going to mix terrorists with weapons of mass destruction. And we haven't found the weapons of mass destruction, but that doesn't mean we leave. And I think the Bush administration has generally done well military, and I think the military has done a fabulous job. I think we have done poorly on the political side. That's what has been poorly done by the Bush administration--it hasn't been well-handled politically. We've got to get a better bipartisan political solution--we can.
A: It depends on one thing: the president does not need that if the target is fleeting. We live in this age of terrorists with high technology, and if you have a very narrow window to hit a target, if the president's going to have to take that on his shoulders, he's going to have to do it. He has the right to do that under the Constitution as the commander in chief of the military forces. If he has time, then certainly you want to go to Congress, as we did in Iraq, and get the approval of Congress. So it's a matter of whether or not the target is fleeting. And with respect to Iran, Iran is walking down the path to build a nuclear device. They've got now about a thousand centrifuges; they claim they've got 3,000. At some point, we may have to pre-empt that target. If we do, it should be done hopefully with allies but perhaps by the U.S. alone.
A: We need a culture of life. I have difficulty with the death penalty. This is an individual, though, that has committed a heinous crime. I think we should limit the death penalty to cases only where we cannot protect the society from the individual, such as when Osama bin Laden is caught. We need to be able to use it then. But we should use this very limited and only in that circumstance, in order to talk and to teach a culture of life in America.
We can leave Iraq, and under my leadership, we will leave Iraq in victory. The key to handing off the security apparatus in Iraq, now that we've stood up a free government, is to have a reliable Iraqi army.
Right now, we've got 131 battalions in the Iraqi army. When they are battle-hardened, we can rotate them into the battle zone, rotate our troops out.
CLINTON: I said there may be a continuing counterterrorism mission, which, if it still exists, will be aimed at al Qaeda in Iraq. It may require combat, Special Operations Forces or some other form of that, but the vast majority of our combat troops should be out.
EDWARDS: I would not continue combat missions in Iraq. Combat missions mean that the war is continuing
Q: Would you send combat troops back in if there was genocide?
EDWARDS: I believe that America along with the rest of the world would have a responsibility to respond to genocide. But it's not something we should do alone.
CLINTON: I said there may be a continuing counterterrorism mission, which, if it still exists, will be aimed at al Qaeda in Iraq. It may require combat, Special Operations Forces or some other form of that, but the vast majority of our combat troops should be out.
EDWARDS: I would not continue combat missions in Iraq. Combat missions mean that the war is continuing
Q: Would you send combat troops back in if there was genocide?
EDWARDS: I believe that America along with the rest of the world would have a responsibility to respond to genocide. But it's not something we should do alone.
A: We live in an era of terrorists with technology. That means we have to cut off every business that would sell killing technology to nations in the Middle East. It might move it to nations or to groups that might use it against us. We have got to lock down the border. That means finishing my border fence, all 854 miles that I legislated. And lastly, we have to leave Iraq in victory.
A: Not forever. The majority of Americans were opposed to [the US military presence in] Korea. Thanks to a very brave president named Harry Truman, at least South Korea is now free today. I hear from hundreds of men and women, all the time. They want us to win.
Q: When you say win, how do you define win?
A: The same way you succeed in any counterinsurgency. The government functions effectively, there's an environment of security. But, basically, you continue to progress and to bring a free and open and democratic society and fight back [against any long-term conflict]. Look, this is an evil influence. They think they're winning. If you listen to bin Laden & Zarqawi, they say they drove us out of Beirut, they drove us out of Mogadishu, they hit the USS Cole, they attacked our embassies, and they're saying, "We'll drive them out of Iraq, and we will succeed.
McCAIN: Iran loves to be in Iraq, and they are in Iraq. And al-Qaeda is in Iraq. If we don't continue to beat them back, they will be a major influence, and have training bases. I hope we can also point out the consequences of failure, which is what the Democrats are proposing now.
KERRY: We've had four and a half years of failure. We are not proposing failure. We're proposing a way to, in fact, make Iraq successful to the degree that it can be by playing to the real undercurrents of their cultural and historical divisions. Nothing in the surge addresses the question of Shia & Sunni divide [or other political issues]
A: Well, here's my view. There's already a civil war. There's sectarian conflict. This Iraqi situation's about to implode. If we withdraw all of our troops, then a possible rebuilding of Iraq can happen with a political reconciliation talks pushed by the United States. I would push it personally if I were president. A date and type agreement that would involve a partition, that would involve Iran and Syria being part of a reconciliation so that Iraq doesn't implode. What brings everybody together, what unites all the region together, is that nobody wants thousands of Iraqi refugees. Nobody wants an implosion. I know the region. I was UN ambassador. I spent 80% of my time on Iraq.
A: I don't. I think we've come to the point where it's time to call this for what it is. This is a civil war in the country. $10 billion a month, $2 billion every week, not to mention the cost of lives, what it's cost the Iraqis themselves, the emergence of al-Qaida in the country, developing a sort of incubator for terrorism. In the coming days in the US Senate, I'll offer that we terminate the funding.
Q: But do you think you can get enough political support among Republicans to make it veto-proof?
A: I doubt it at this point, but I'll start anyway. I think we should have started it earlier here to build that case. And even many Republicans have serious doubts and reservations. [Bush's] language is so eerily reminiscent of language I heard 40 years ago about showing more patience, wait a little longer, this may work down the road, that frankly, many of us who went through that are saying today that's enough.
The president has maintained that the US is in a state of war against terrorism, and therefore has the authority to hold enemy combatants indefinitely without trial, formal charges, or revealment of evidence against them. There was no significant challenge to them until the case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld reached the Supreme Court.
In its ruling, the Supreme Court said that the president needed the approval of Congress to pursue measures other than those expressly dictated by existing US laws and treaties. The president's quick response was to propose legislation that would have Congress rubber-stamp his initial practices. He demanded a free hand in interrogation--a circumstance that was deeply troubling.
A: Well, the first thing that you would do is to realize that terrorism is not a war. Our war on terrorism makes no sense. We've had terrorism since the beginning of civilization, and we'll have it to the end of civilization. It must be treated as a criminal act for what it is. The US should now interface with Interpol and with other countries to bring these people to justice, but our government has done just the opposite. We had the help of Iran to do away with the Taliban three years ago, then we called them an "Axis of Evil." We had the help of other countries, and now they do--our government doesn't need them. We have a database of 7 million stolen passports at Interpol and it's headed up by an American, and not one American intelligence agency has ever accessed that database. We can't even put the dots together here little more than can we do it globally.
OBAMA: I have been a consistent champion of comprehensive immigration reform. And keep in mind that my father came to this country from a small village in Africa because he was looking for opportunity. And so when I see people who are coming across these borders, whether legally or illegally, I know that the motivation is trying to create a better life for their children and their grandchildren. So I was one of the leaders, along with several other senators, in passing comprehensive immigration reform. It failed in the House. That is going to involve some elements of border security because we've got to make our borders more secure. We can't just have hundreds of thousands of people coming into the country without knowing who they are.
A: I do favor much more border patrolling and much more technology on both of our borders, and in certain areas, even a physical barrier, because I think we've got to secure our borders. That has to be part of comprehensive immigration reform. I have championed comprehensive immigration reform, and it includes starting with securing our borders in order to give people the support they need to come over and support us when it comes to having a pathway to legalization. We all know that this has become a contentious political issue. We want to work in a bipartisan way to have comprehensive reform--employer verification, more help for local communities so that they can pay for schooling and hospital and other expenses that they have to bear because of the immigration crisis.
A: Obviously, any debate about immigration has to include security here. The American people feel strongly about it. But I would argue that while there may be a place periodically to have security along that border that include some fence, it's also important that we understand the underlying reason why people emigrate, and we're not focusing enough attention on that. We need to be dealing with our neighbor, Mexico, far more cooperatively. For 26 years, I've co-chaired the interparliamentary meeting with Mexico. This is an ally, this is a friend, this is a neighbor. We need to have trading agreements and economic agreements that can lift people up, with working conditions that would allow them to live in their countries not have to emigrate to this country.
A: First of all, a Kucinich administration will build relationships between nations, not walls. We need to move forward with an America that remembers where we came from, and immigration reform has to be central to it. That means there must be a path to legalization, because there are no illegal human beings. We have to start looking at our policies, which are aimed at separating people. Everyone here understands that the immigration acceleration occurred after the passage of NAFTA. I've said one of my first acts in office will be to cancel NAFTA and the WTO and go back to trade based on workers' rights. And then we have a new trade agreement with Mexico, a trade agreement that strengthens America and Mexico and strengthens the rights of workers to organize and collectively bargain.
In this broader war with this different kind of enemy, our success cannot always be measured by battlefield victories. Success will depend upon the determination of the American people and that's why we'll win. There is a courage that comes in unity. Now is the time to show that America united can overcome any danger, and America united can complete any missio
A: I don't think that we can take nuclear power off the table. What we have to make sure of is that we have the capacity to store waste properly and safely, and that we reduce whatever threats might come from terrorism. And if we can do that in a technologically sound way, then we should pursue it. If we can't, we should not. But there is no magic bullet on energy. We're going to have to look at all the various options.
CLINTON: My understanding of the revolutionary guard in Iran is that it is promoting terrorism. It is manufacturing weapons that are used against our troops in Iraq. It is certainly the main agent of support for Hezbollah, Hamas and others, and in what we voted for today, we will have an opportunity to designate it as a terrorist organization, which gives us the options to be able to impose sanctions on the leaders.
A: No, I would not. I met 17 three- and four-star generals who, after my making a speech pointing out I would not under any circumstances sanction torture, I thought they were about to read me the riot act. The generals said, Biden, will you make a commitment you will never use torture? It does not work. It is part of the reason why we got the faulty information on Iraq in the first place is because it was engaged in by one person who gave whatever answer they thought they were going to give in order to stop being tortured. It doesn't work. It should be no part of our policy ever--ever.
A: As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy, period. There is very little evidence that it works. Now, there are a lot of other things that we need to be doing that I wish we were: better intelligence; working to have more allies. But these hypotheticals are very dangerous because they open a great big hole in what should be an attitude that our country and our president takes toward the appropriate treatment of everyone. And I think it's dangerous to go down this path.
Q: The guest who laid out this scenario for me with that proposed solution was William Jefferson Clinton last year. So he disagrees with you.
A: Well, he's not standing here right now.
Q: So there is a disagreement?
A: Well, I'll talk to him later.
A: I would disagree with that. This was all part of the Military Commissions Act which was adopted last fall. There were only a handful of us that voted against it at the time. And I've written legislation to overturn it. I'll offer no better witness here than John McCain, who said that during those terrible years he was incarcerated and tortured, he would say anything to those interrogators in order to stop the physical pain. So we need to reinforce the idea here; this is a dreadful way to collect information We need to do other things to make sure it happens. But walking away from international conventions, as we did with the Geneva Conventions to disallow the restrictions on torture, I think, is a mistake, and also to walk away from habeas corpus.
HUNTER: Let me just tell you what they've done. In Anbar Province, we were having 1,350 attacks a month last October. By the blood, sweat and tears of the US Marines out there, we pulled it down 80%. They've pulled down civilian casualties 74%. We've got 129 battalions in the Iraqi army that we're training up. That's the right way to win. It's called victory. That's how we leave Iraq.
Q: No matter how long it takes?
HUNTER: If you think we're going to be there for a long time, you don't understand the determination of the US Marines and the US Army. We're going to turn it over.
A: Well, there is no comparison, of course. There's no question but that the honor that we have for men and women who serve in our armed forces is a place of honor we will never forget and nothing compares to it. People who are willing to put their life on the line for American freedom are in a league of their own, and we owe them our respect. And the sacrifice they make is something we'll never forget.
A: Torture. I mean, we get into this debate all the time, and as to what exactly is the definition of torture. The question that elicited the response that you mentioned was, what do we do [to prevent detonation of] a nuclear device. Yes, I would certainly waterboard--I don't believe that that is "torture." I would do what is necessary to protect this country. That is the ultimate responsibility of the president. All of the other powers vested in him pale in comparison to his responsibility to keep the people of this country safe. And, yes, I would go to great lengths to keep this country safe.
A: You're quoting me incorrectly. I said the responsibility for protecting passengers falls with the airline, not the government--and not the passengers. The airline's responsible for the aircraft and the passengers. If we wouldn't have been dependent on the federal government to set all the rules, which meant no guns & no resistance, then the terrorists may well have had second thoughts, because the airlines would have had the responsibility. But we assumed the government was going to take care of us. After 9/11, instead of moving toward the direction of personal responsibility & private property & 2nd amendment, we moved in the opposite direction. We turned it over to the federal government. Private industry protects their property all the time. But here is one example when the federal government was involved and they messed it up.
A: No, of course not. But use the law to follow people who are teaching doctrines of terror & hate, and make sure that if they're doing that in a mosque, in a school, in a playground, wherever it's being done, we know what's going on. There's no question but that we're under threat from people who want to attack our country in this global effort. We need to know about that, track them, follow them, and make sure that in every way we can, we know what they're doing and where they're doing it. And if it means we have to go into a mosque to wiretap or a church, then that's exactly where we're going to go. I hear from time to time people say, hey, wait a second. We have civil liberties we have to worry about. But don't forget, the most important civil liberty I expect from my government is my right to be kept alive, & that's what we're going to have to do.
A: Well, absolutely. And let me tell you that the proof of that is the fact that we have conducted these combatant review tribunals. And we've actually sent back to the battlefield or sent back to Afghanistan some of the people that we thought were no longer a threat. Some of those people have shown up on the battlefield bearing arms against our soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines, back on the battlefield after we sent them back. If anything, we've been too liberal with the release of terrorists. [The prisoners at Guantanamo] get taxpayer-paid-for prayer rugs. They have prayer five times a day. They've all gained weight. We've got to keep Guantanamo open.
A: I think that we have to look at Iran really in a different way than just the Cold War analysis. It's a different situation. Iran is right now the single biggest state sponsor of Islamic terrorism. America has to have a clear position. The position should be that Iran is not going to be allowed to go nuclear. Exactly when you would act and how you would act, it would be foolish for anyone running for president to answer a hypothetical like that. You want an element of surprise. You want the other side to understand that there's a step beyond which you will not go. Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot. But it was because he pointed, like, a thousand missiles at Soviet cities. And he negotiated with them. I heard this confusion in the Democratic debate about when to talk and when not to talk. Well, Reagan talked to them with a thousand missiles pointed directly at their cities.
HUNTER: Let me just tell you what they've done. In Anbar Province, we were having 1,350 attacks a month last October. By the blood, sweat and tears of the US Marines out there, we pulled it down 80%. They've pulled down civilian casualties 74%. We've got 129 battalions in the Iraqi army that we're training up. That's the right way to win. It's called victory. That's how we leave Iraq.
Q: No matter how long it takes?
HUNTER: If you think we're going to be there for a long time, you don't understand the determination of the US Marines and the US Army. We're going to turn it over.
PAUL: Yes, I would leave. I would leave completely. Why leave the troops in the region? The fact that we had troops in Saudi Arabia was one of the three reasons given for the attack on 9/11. So why leave them in the region? They don't want our troops on the Arabian Peninsula. We have no need for our national security to have troops on the Arabian Peninsula.
Q: You're basically saying that we should take our marching orders from Al Qaida? If they want us off the Arabian Peninsula, we should leave?
PAUL: No! I'm saying we should take our marching orders from our Constitution. We should not go to war without a declaration. We should not go to war when it's an aggressive war. This is an aggressive invasion. We've committed the invasion of this war. And it's illegal under international law. That's where I take my marching orders, not from any enemy.
And the greatest danger for us in meeting this threat is the weakness of our intelligence services. We do not have any significant intelligence on the enemy's plans, networks, & troop strength.
Second, we must contain powers that could threaten us, including China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, & Pakistan--all of which have weapons of mass destruction.
The greatest threat of rogue dictatorships, like Iran or North Korea, is that they will sell weapons of mass destruction. While North Korea--with nuclear, chemical, & biological weapons--is a big threat to South Korea & Japan, it is a very distant threat to the US. But an Iran or a North Korea willing to sell nuclear and biological weapons to terrorists is very dangerous to America.
A: Well, yes. I think he's flat wrong. His policy is failing. Here's what I believe can happen. If we withdraw our troops, you've got the insurgents that have been united today with Al Qaida, with the terrorists, against our troops. That's what unites them. If we get out, then the insurgents will start fighting the terrorists--nobody likes foreign fighters in Iraq. What we need is diplomacy. So I'm not just saying the US should get out. We should take our presence out, put some forces in Kuwait, where we are wanted, put some forces in Afghanistan, where Al Qaida and terrorism are a threat, and then bring a regional solution by our U.S. diplomacy engaging and leading, instead of overreaction and contributing to a surge that is only making things worse.
A: Musharraf is not a wonderful leader, but he provides some stability in Pakistan. And there is a great risk, if he's overthrown, about a radical government taking over. They have a nuclear weapon. They're in constant tension with India, which also has a nuclear weapon, over Kashmir. It's a dangerous, volatile situation. Q: But is Obama right or wrong?
A: As president, I would not talk about hypotheticals in nuclear weapons. I think that's not a healthy thing to do. I think what it does for the president is it effectively limits your options. And I do not want to limit my options, and I don't want to talk about hypothetical use of nuclear weapons. I would add that I think what the president should actually do, and what I would do as president, is to lead an international effort over time to eliminate nuclear weapons from the planet. That's the way to make the planet more secure.
Clinton on videotape:Q: What's the principal difference there?
"I would certainly take nuclear weapons off the table. And this administration has been very willing to talk about using nuclear weapons in a way we haven't seen since the dawn of the nuclear age. I think that's a terrible mistake."
CLINTON: I was asked specifically about the Bush-Cheney administration's policy to drum up support for military action against Iran. Combine that with their continuing effort to try to get what are called bunker-buster bombs, nuclear bombs that could penetrate into the earth to go after deeply buried nuclear sites. This was not a hypothetical, this was a brushback against this administration which has been reckless and provocative.
OBAMA: There's no difference [in our policies].
CLINTON: Iran was not a hypothetical, but a brushback against this administration which has been reckless and provocative.
OBAMA: It is not hypothetical that Al Qaida has established base camps in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
RICHARDSON: This talk about hypotheticals is what's gotten us in trouble. Here's what I would do on nuclear weapons: I wouldn't use nuclear weapons first. However, you can never take the military option off the table. This administration has used the military option preemption. It should be diplomacy first, negotiation, build international support for our goals, find ways that America can get allies in our fight against terrorism, against nuclear proliferation. We should have a treaty on fissionable material and loose nuclear weapons.
CLINTON: I was asked specifically about the Bush-Cheney administration's policy to drum up support for military action against Iran. Combine that with their continuing effort to try to get "bunker-buster" nuclear bombs that could penetrate into the earth to go after deeply buried nuclear sites. This was not a hypothetical, this was a brushback against this administration which has been reckless and provocative.
Q: Do you accept that distinction?
OBAMA: There was no difference. It is not hypothetical that Al Qaida has established base camps in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan. No military expert would advise that we use nuclear weapons to deal with them, but we do have to deal with that problem.
EDWARDS: As president, I would not talk about hypotheticals in nuclear weapons. I think that effectively limits your options. What I would do as president, is to lead an international effort over time to eliminate nuclear weapons from the planet. That's the way to make the planet more secure.
GRAVEL: That's very good but, under the last 25 years, this nation has continued to expand its nuclear capability.
A: When you're running for president, you have to think about the question and the answer, but you also have to think about the implications of what you're saying around the world. And Pakistan is a tinderbox. And of course, America keeps its options open to do what we think is in our best interest. But in a place like Pakistan, you make sure that you don't say things that could be misinterpreted and misused. And that was what his error was. Of course, if we receive actionable intelligence about bin Laden, we will take appropriate action, but we don't describe exactly what that might mean. We have an ally there, Musharraf. We don't want in any way to try & weaken him in a very difficult situation, and that was Obama's mistake.
A: Sen. Biden supports ending the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. It is antiquated and unworkable. According to recent polls, 3/4 of veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan said that they had no problem serving with openly gay people. 24 of the nations serving alongside US forces in Iraq permit open service which has had no negative impact on these forces or the morale of our brave soldiers. Finally, the US does not have enough troops to fulfill our current missions--it is ridiculous to turn away brave and patriotic Americans who volunteer to serve solely because of their sexual orientation--especially in light of the Defense Department's recent decision to extend tours of duty in Iraq. Sen. Biden believes that we should treat everyone serving in the military by the same standards regardless of orientation.
A: I will take whatever steps are necessary to protect the security of the US. By withdrawing from Iraq, the real peace and reconciliation in that country can begin. We can get the three groups together, we can have an all-Muslim peacekeeping force, we will have a donor conference to rebuild that country. And then we can focus on what really affects American foreign policy.
Terrorism's a real issue. It's going to require a collective effort on behalf our nation working with others to make a difference. Terrorism is a tactic, it's not a philosophy, and it's going to require an inordinate amount of cooperation to solve that. Having the kind of first responders at home like the firefighters and police and EMS services that have the tools and the ability to stand up and defend our country has not been funded.
While we haven't been attacked, I think we're vulnerable today more so than we were right after 9/11.
DODD: It was a mistake to suggest somehow that going in unilaterally here into Pakistan was somehow in our interest. That is dangerous.
CLINTON: It may well be that the strategy we have to pursue on the basis of actionable intelligence. But I think it is a very big mistake to telegraph that [by publicly stating it and to thereby] destabilize the Musharraf regime.
BIDEN: It's already the policy of the US, has been for four years, that if there was actionable intelligence, we would go into Pakistan. That's the law. Secondly, it's already the law, that I wrote into the law, saying that in fact we don't cooperation from Musharraf, we cut off his money. It's time everybody start to know the facts.
CLINTON: People running for president should not engage in hypotheticals. And it may well be that the strategy we have to pursue on the basis of actionable intelligence--but remember, we've had some real difficult experiences with actionable intelligence--might lead to a certain action. But I think it is a very big mistake to telegraph that and to destabilize the Musharraf regime, which is fighting for its life against the Islamic extremists who are in bed with al Qaeda and Taliban. And remember, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The last thing we want is to have al Qaeda-like followers in charge of Pakistan and having access to nuclear weapons. So you can think big, but remember, you shouldn't always say everything you think if you're running for president, because it has consequences across the world.
DODD: I think it's highly irresponsible to suggest we may be willing unilaterally to invade a nation who we're trying to get to be more cooperative with us in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
CLINTON: I think it is a very big mistake to telegraph that and to destabilize the Musharraf regime, which is fighting for its life against the Islamic extremists.
Well, no, I don't--Homeland Security is far too large, in my view. And of course, the efforts to deprive people to be able to organize in that department was one of the great tragedies here. People ought to be allowed to organize & collectively bargain. And certainly, I happen to believe that we're not safer today even though we have not had an attack on our own soil. Tell that to the people in Iraq, tell that to the people in Afghanistan, tell that to the people around the world. While we haven't been attacked, I think we're vulnerable today more so than we were right after 9/11.
A: I don't believe that we are safer now than we were after 9/11 because we have made a series of terrible decisions in our foreign policy. We went into Iraq, a war that we should have never authorized and should not have been waged. It has fanned the flames of anti-American sentiment. It has, more importantly, allowed us to neglect the situation in Afghanistan. We know right now that al Qaeda is hiding in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
A: You know, Bush has not told the truth for seven years; it's time we tell the truth. The truth is if al Qaeda establishes a base in Iraq, all these people who talk about going into Pakistan are going to have to send your kids back to Iraq. And so the fact of the matter is it matters how we get out of Iraq. Separate the parties. Give them control over their own security. Begin to draw down our troops. But let's start talking the truth to the American people.
A: Well, look, if we had followed my judgment originally, we wouldn't have been in Iraq. We're here now. And we've got no good options. We got bad options and worse options. The only way we're going to stabilize Iraq and make sure that al Qaeda does not take over in the long term is to begin a phased redeployment so that we don't have anti-American sentiment as a focal point for al Qaeda in Iraq. We can still have troops in the region, outside of Iraq, that can help on counterterrorism activities, and we've got to make sure that they don't establish long-term bases there. But right now, the bases are in Afghanistan and in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan; that's where we've got to focus.
DODD: It was a mistake to suggest somehow that going in unilaterally here into Pakistan was somehow in our interest. That is dangerous. And I don't retreat from that at all.
OBAMA: I did not say that we would immediately go in unilaterally. What I said was that we have to work with Musharraf, because the biggest threat to American security right now are in the northwest provinces of Pakistan and that we should continue to give him military aid contingent on him doing something about that.
DODD: I made a mistake in that vote in 2002. I don't deny that. But when you make a mistake on something like this, you ought to stand up and say so. It was a mistake to suggest somehow that going in unilaterally here into Pakistan was somehow in our interest. That is dangerous. And I don't retreat from that at all.
OBAMA: I did not say that we would immediately go in unilaterally. What I said was that we have to work with Musharraf, contingent on him doing something about that.
That's not exactly what he said. Obama is referring to an Aug. 1 policy address, in which he made no direct mention of working with Musharraf. Instead, he said he would "take out" al Qaeda if Musharraf failed to act.
Obama (Aug. 1